Rhandyl: [00:00:00] Hey all, welcome to today's episode. We have on Chris Hulshof, and Deonna and I have been wanting to have an episode about the topic of faith and disability, but we could never really figure out. The right way to navigate that and pinpoint how we wanted to talk about it. And so I was actually having a conversation with my uncle Chad Bird, who we've talked about a few times in some episodes, in the past. And he gave me Chris Hulshof's information and we reached out. And so here we are. We're so excited to have you on.

Uh, Chris is a Christian scholar, a theologian, , an advocate for disability inclusion in the Christian community. , He has multiple education. Credentials that show , an in depth, , theological education and emphasis of religion and education and ministries, which he's gonna tell us all about this. But he's also an author and a professor and he prioritizes inclusive faith for people [00:01:00] with disabilities. And his book is titled Jesus and Disability, A Guide to Creating An Inclusive Church. And his course at Liberty University is called, theology of Suffering and Disability. So that is a Googled summary of what I know about Chris. And so, we can't wait to get into more depth on all of the things.

So first off, Chris, do you wanna share a little bit about where you live, your family, anything you'd like to share? Start off. 

Chris: Sure. So, uh, I am the disability Ministry coordinator, program director, uh, at Liberty University. , And so we offer a minor in disability ministries here, residentially, and then online it's a cognate in Disability Ministries. And so I oversee all of that. So you mentioned the One Course Theology of Suffering and Disability. , The other course that fits in that minor as it relates to disabilities is disability ministry through the [00:02:00] generation.

So basically the idea is if you were to take a family from initial diagnosis to end of life issues mm-hmm. For not only the parents and the caregivers, but for the individual with a disability themselves. And if you were to look at what are the ways that, we can minister to or advocate for. That individual as they move through the various ages and stages of life. That's what the focus of that course is. And so that's, that's me sort of professionally what I do here at Liberty University.

, Personally, uh, my wife and I have one son. , His name's Connor. He was born with infantile epilepsy, , which meant that basically he was born having seizures. Mm-hmm. And so we spent the first two years of his life, trying to track that down, how to maybe get a handle on it. And so we tried everything he could throw at it, whether it was a diet, whether it's medicine, whether it's experimental medicine, everything he could throw at it, we threw at it. But nothing really stopped or helped the seizures. , They were cluster seizures, so a good day, you know, he could have 15 to 20 bad day, you know, 50 [00:03:00] plus. Wow, man. Um, and 

Rhandyl: what year was he born? 

Chris: So he's 23 now. Okay. Um, and so he's all over the place. So when we had the initial diagnosis, they said, uh, the good part about his condition is that all of the bad brain tissue is on one side of his head. It's all on the right side. And so one of the things that we can do, if everything else has failed, we can do some brain surgery, actually drastic enough brain surgery where we'll just remove the right half of his brain in order to control the seizures. Uh, okay.

And so we tried smaller brain surgeries, and then eventually it was like, whether it's the medicines, the diets, anything you, even small surgeries, what would happen is every time they removed a chunk of his brain, then some other part would then become , the engine that drove his mm-hmm. , And so they said like, we could keep doing this, but we clearly know that it doesn't matter how much we remove, it's just something else is gonna start it up.

So, [00:04:00] mm-hmm. Um, when he was two, we made the decision to have the right hemisphere of his brain removed. Um, wow. And so what they did was they left the front pole in and the back pole in for stability, and then they removed the middle section , of the right side of his brain, and then they severed the right side from the left side. Uh, so that he really only has a functional left half of the brain. , And so because the right side is the side that doesn't function anymore. Right side controls the left side of your body. Uh, and so that's left him with some left side impairment. Mm-hmm. Uh, doesn't use his left arm from the shoulder to the fingertips. Walks with a little bit of a limp in his left leg, uh, and then has some left side peripheral vision issues. Um, and so between the seizures, the two years of seizures and the surgery, um, it's the Ben Carson surgery basically. Like people are like, oh yeah, it's with the surgery that made Ben Carson famous. That's the surgery. Oh, yeah. Uh, 

and so he's 23. He's, there's some parts of his life where [00:05:00] he's like a 23-year-old college kid. Mm-hmm. Uh, and there are other parts of his life where he is, you know, 4, 5, 6. And so what's cool about it as a dad is, I get the opportunity to have 23-year-old conversations with my son, but I also get to have five and 6-year-old conversations with my son. They're a part of his life. Yeah. Where like the magic of being a kid has never actually left his life. Oh, right. Um, yeah. 

And so it's, and so that's how I got, invested in disabilities. Just seeing. You know, what the church is doing, what the church isn't doing. Mm-hmm. How churches can be more effective, uh, as it relates to disability. And so that's personally, that's professionally. Academically, this is the area of my research and study. , some avenue as it relates to disability. I think what often happens when it comes to disability. And so the, and the question usually is to me it's presented this way. Like, oh, so you a theology of disabilities? And I always say, no, I don't do a theology of disabilities. I study [00:06:00] theology and then I apply it to disabilities. Right. I think what's up happening is if you flip them around, you end up getting the theology mixed up. Mm-hmm. Because disability becomes the lens through which you do theology. Mm-hmm. Rather than no disability. Theology is the lens through which I understand disability.

Right. Um, and so that's academically what I find myself studying. And whether it's, , how can churches , advocate for individuals with disability? How can churches do disability ministry? Those kind of things, are academically where I find myself in.

Um, I That's cool. Have, right now I'm in this spot where I'm, , spending a lot of time disability in the resurrected body. What will our resurrected bodies look like in heaven? Will disabilities be a part of heaven? I think the answer's no. Um, but I've been around enough people in this space who are like, well, I don't necessarily, , I I wouldn't be so sure with your No. Yet. And I'm like, I don't, like, I don't see where you find that in scripture. Yeah. So, um, I've spent a lot of time developing arguments to [00:07:00] make the case that the resurrected body will be disability free. 

Deonna: yeah, , I actually think about that a lot because I talk to my daughter about that a lot. And , she wants to be assured that in heaven, she will not have a wheelchair. She will not have a trach. She'll be able to walk, she'll be able to do these things. And from what I've learned, which I probably know a lot less than you, but from what I've noticed and seen, I, I truly believe that to be true, that you won't have. These types of physical, limitations because there's no, I don't know, there's no sadness, no tears, you know what I'm saying? Like it's, yeah. Oh yeah. So that's kind of where I get that thought from. So yeah. That's interesting that you are studying about that. 

Rhandyl: Yeah. I've actually never even thought about that other people might think that there are disabilities, in the resurrected body because Yeah, I've, always learned and felt, that we will have,, a perfect body in his image when [00:08:00] we get to heaven. But that's a very interesting, topic of discussion for some of your. Colleagues, I'm sure. 

Chris: Yeah, and I mean, the argument basically goes something like Jesus resurrected body. He had the wounds in his hand and he had the wounds in his feet oh, right. Yeah. Right. And if that was us today and we had those kind of wounds in our hands and our feet, they would be disabling. And so if Jesus' resurrected body is a wounded body , that's significantly wounded like that. Mm-hmm. Um, but , here's the reality. That's the only passage of scripture where you can really go to and kind of make that argument. Uh, and I would argue 

Deonna: it's interesting too because, in that instance where he comes back once again, he was here. Yeah. So you're like, okay, , maybe in heaven his body looks different than when he came back. , I don't know. That's interesting to think about. 

Chris: I think the argument is basically, yeah, those wounds were to confirm that his body was his body, right? Mm-hmm. Right. That it wasn't a ghost, it wasn't on earth. [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was, it was him that, like the disciples saw the wounds on his, and it was just those, he was wounded in more places than those. He, he had the crown thorns his back. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, was beat destroyed. Yeah. So he had. He had other wounds. Oh yeah. And so I would argue that those wounds were specific. Not to say, okay, now you're gonna have disabilities in heaven. To say, oh my goodness. Those wounds were specific so that when the disciples saw the resurrected Jesus, they would go, that's him. That's Jesus. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so it's, more about confirmation of the body rather than proof of disability.

Deonna: Huh. That's crazy. I've never thought about like people using the Jesus hands and feet thing to say. That two people will be disabled? I hope not, honestly. I know a lot of stuff we can just speculate honestly, but I really hope not. 'cause I've already told my daughter that's not going to happen. So. 

Chris: Well, I think there's, more evidence in scripture for a, [00:10:00] fully healed body. Yeah. I think our resurrected bodies will be closer to the bodies that Adam and Eve had in the garden mm-hmm. Than they are to the bodies that we have today. 

Deonna: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that is probably true. 

Chris: I think the intention is, and the, way I usually end up talking about it's, is usually there's something about an individual's personality as it relates to disability mm-hmm. That we find very unique, very neat, very like, oh, they, and so, because we find that sort of unique or enjoyable or quirky, whatever the words you want to use, and it's so close to their disability that we end up going, well, I couldn't imagine them in heaven without that.

Deonna: Right, right. It wouldn't be them anymore. Yeah. It'd be somebody else. Yeah. 

Chris: But it doesn't necessarily mean that just because. The physical disability is gone. So is the, you know, whatever it is that, uh, personality, yeah, the personality trait. Yeah. So like for my son, because of his disability, now I end up talking about this a ton.

Um, one of the things like repetition is his thing, like [00:11:00] mm-hmm. We, I, if something is funny one time it will be funny 10,000 times. Right. So I will find myself repeating the same thing over and over and over again. Yeah. And the example I always use, we have this place out where we live where, it's basically a whole bunch of, food trucks. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's called The Backyard. Uh, and so when it opened, the first time it opened, we were driving by and I said to Connor, I was like, Hey, there's those food trucks. It's called The Backyard. And he's like, oh, okay. So he is just kind of remembering. So like a week later we're driving by and he says, Hey, look, it's the backyard again.

And I said. The Backyardigans. Pablo, tasha Uniqua Austin. Tyrone is, and my wife, first of all, can't believe I still remember all the Backyardigans. Yeah. Impressed. But my son thinks it's the funniest thing ever. And so every time we go by that thing, he's like, Hey, it's The Backyardigans. And I gotta repeat the whole back, the whole thing. Right. And so 

Deonna: you're never gonna forget it now. 

Chris: No. And this is funny to him, the, the, the uhhuh hundred 50th [00:12:00] time as it was the first time. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. And I always tell people like, what needs to be perfected in heaven isn't my son's desire for repetition, it's my ability to enjoy his repetition.

Rhandyl: Right, right. 

Chris: That's what needs to be perfected in heaven. Yeah. And so like I think what ends up happening is we end up thinking too much of the body we have now. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then what that body and go, well that's gotta be some version of that. And I would argue that. The body that we'll have in heaven will be closer to Adam and Eve's body than the body that mm-hmm. Uh, we have now. 

Deonna: Yeah. That is interesting. I've never really thought about that. That's cool. 

Chris: That's, that's what happens when you do it the other way, right? When you're like, no, I'm not do disability theology. I do theology and apply it to disability. 

Deonna: Yeah, it's true. It's true. So, , you've kind of talked about your son's early medical experiences and things like that. How did those shape y'all as parents and as people of [00:13:00] faith? 

Chris: I can speak really probably more for me than, than I can for my wife here. Mm-hmm. Um, for me, uh, I always tell, and I tell my students this all the time on the theology of suffering and disability. The first couple years of Connor's life, at least even initial diagnosis, were really hard on my faith.

Mm-hmm. Um, I think you always think I've got enough faith to go through a lot of things, and then you go through something like this and you realize I don't have faith enough for this. Mm. Um, and so I was teaching high school Bible at the time and, um, I just, it was one of those things where I'm like, I have to be strong for my wife. I have to be strong for my son. Mm-hmm. I have to be strong for the students that I'm teaching. They have to see me as this giant man of faith. Yeah. And I just realized I was none of those things, 

Deonna: a lot of pressure. 

Chris: And, so I spent a lot of time hiding out, like, and my philosophy was, look, I'm just gonna fake it till I make it. And I learned that in Christian circles, if you know the right words to say, the right words to pray, if you can quote the right Christian lyrics to praise [00:14:00] and worship music man, you can fool a lot of people. Yeah. Yep. 

Um, but it was, I don't even know if the student, would even remember the episode, but it's one of those episodes where it's seared in my mind. , It was a rough night with Connor. I'm coming into school to teach students and there's this, she was a junior at the time and she comes. Sort of bouncing down the hall towards me. I can take you the spot. This happened in class or in the school. And she's, and she was one of those high school girls who was always, , like I needed three cups of coffee to catch up with her. 'Cause she's always bubb and happy and bouncy and she's just, you know, she never walked. She just kind of skipped, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Um, and so she's walking towards me, the hall, and she says to me, isn't God good? And it was like, and in my mind I'm thinking, I don't know, like last night was terrible. I'm not sure. And I said, how do you know? Or, and, and then I said a few other things the Bible teachers are probably not supposed to say, but not of like the four letter variety, but just like, [00:15:00] oh yeah, I know face, her face just went like sheet white. Like my Bible teacher's saying this and I don't know what's going on. Um, and it was at that point where I realized , I had a problem. 

Mm-hmm. Right? Like, fake it till you make it wasn't working anymore. There's, I can't quote any more Chris Tomlin lyrics. , And so one of the things that happened was,, I played on the hockey team here at Liberty when I was a student here. And I got to know my coach was Dr. Habermas, , who's like the leading expert on the resurrection. Hmm. Um, and he had, he always told his hockey players, listen, if you ever need anything, gimme a call. Uh, and so I had his phone number and I knew that he had went through a couple really hard things in his life., And so I called him up and I said, Hey, coach, I'm in trouble. 

Mm-hmm. And he said, what's going on? And so over the next month or so, just emails, phone conversations, Hey, read this book. It was really helpful. And so I would say like, as far as faith goes, the first year or so was really, really hard., [00:16:00] Because you think your faith is strong enough and then all of a sudden you find it pressed and you quickly realize it's not strong enough. Mm-hmm. And then you've got, you know, you're either gonna run to God or run away from him. 

Rhandyl: Mm-hmm. Yes. 

Chris: Uh, and it was the blessing of God, the grace of God, to have somebody like, Dr. Habermas in my life, to be able to lean into and go, man, I thought I was strong enough for this, but I'm not. Can you help? Mm-hmm. Um, and just to be able to, that's cool. You know, have those kind of conversations with him was really helpful.

Deonna: Well, and it's nice 'cause it sounds like he wasn't afraid to go there and , a lot of Christians are gonna say the cute things like you were saying. Yeah. But they don't wanna actually. Get too close to you because your life is really messed up or, whatever the case may be and they can't handle it.

, That's happened to me a lot. I've noticed a lot of Christians, they wanna pretend they're friends with my daughter. , When it's the cute times. Yeah. But when it's the ugly times, yeah. , They're not really there. So it's really important to have [00:17:00] Christians around you that are willing to kind of go through the trenches with you. 'Cause that's how it is to us every day. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the trenches every day, , in some way. So, 

Rhandyl: yeah. And I know, I what you're talking about, like, in the beginning, I'm nine years into it and I mean, I did all the things like why her, like mm-hmm. Why me? Like, why our family, like. Please just give me her disability. Take my life for her is just what, I was just pleading everything and questioning everything, um, what I do wrong. Yeah, yeah. Just so much guilt and then I believe when she was two and we went to have her airway surgery in Boston. And I remember just being like, everything is out of my control. Like, please take this on. And just prayed this prayer of just helplessness and mm-hmm. Just take it. And I had the most overwhelming sense of [00:18:00] peace and even a vision of her future. And it's, and it was around the age that she is now. 'Cause for so long I didn't even think she would make it near adolescence. Mm-hmm. And so, that was kind of my turning point in , just accepting that I'm not in control, um, as much as I want it to be. 'cause that's, that's an issue of mine. Yeah. I will admit.

So, like you were saying, you can either run from your faith or go to it. And I've said that a lot, Deonna and I both have, and a few of our episodes. And it is so true. I have seen firsthand, people that have gone through some very traumatic, maybe not a disability, but something traumatic or even with, something similar to what we have in our lives. And it is a 50 50 split. Even if they were Christian prior, now I can say it would be easy to be a non-believer after mm-hmm. Going through such traumatic experiences.

, But, on the same topic, but like in what ways has being. Connor's dad influenced your [00:19:00] view of God and suffering. Healing. And I'm wondering how you got from that point of, getting with your friend and figuring out things to going into the field you're in, , now, what was that turning point?

Chris: Yeah. And, and so here's the thing, there are multiple, like, turning points, right? Like I mm-hmm. So as much as that was the sort of a turning point that I'm like, man, I need help. Like, I cannot do this anymore. Right. There was also sort of a, theological turning point. And for me,, I could, again, I could take you to the exact place. So we were at Miami Children's Hospital at the time,, and, they have a prayer chapel. It was on the main floor, I think if, uh, mm-hmm. Go to the prayer chapel, not to pray, just because I could be alone. Right. Like there was no, yeah, I did that too. Yeah, I did that too. There was nobody ever in the prayer chapel. Right. I know. 

Yeah. I'm like, so I'm just, and I, I'm not going to pray. I just, the [00:20:00] machines are beeping. Everybody's asking questions. Mm-hmm. This is like, I can't, I, there's so much going on. I can't process any of the, I just need to get out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and so I'd often go to the prayer chapel again. Most times I didn't pray. Sometimes I would, but most times I didn't pray. Uh, and so one day I went down to the prayer chapel, and it was just one of those days where I'm like, none of this is making any sense. Like mm-hmm. I just, I don't know. I, I can't make any sense of anything that's going on here.

, And we're in Miami at the time, so the prayer chapel in this hospital looks more like a Catholic church than it does the Protestant church . Right. And so I go into the prayer chapel and uh, I sit in the back row 'cause I'm still a good Baptist, even though it doesn't look like a Baptist church. And so I can tell you the prayer that I prayed that day, the prayer that I prayed that day was this, God, you have no idea what it feels like to have a son who's suffering.

Right. And that's exactly what I, what I'm, what I'm feeling now. I know I'm in this Catholic, I'm in this very [00:21:00] Catholic looking prayer chapel. Yeah. And so I know sooner had I finished praying that I looked up and I see the one thing that you're gonna find in. Catholic and some Protestant churches. Yeah. Then all of a sudden was like, wait, you do understand I saw the, oh wait, , I saw the crucifix front and center. Yep. Uh, right. And it was at the moment I'm like, wait, no. You do understand what this is like. Yeah.

Um, and so theologically you talk about running to God or running from God that reoriented the running to God part in my mind, because now I'm like, well, no, you do understand and , in the theology, suffering and disability class, when I talk about that, I didn't have a theological language for that at the time. Right. I just knew that, God understood my suffering, that he mm-hmm. He definitely, he had a son who suffered. Right. So, what I'd come to realize, you know, a couple years later, doing disability thinking through theology and disability , and putting together is that. Martin Luther in his theology of the cross talked about that theology of the cross and mm-hmm. And so I began to years later,, understand theologically [00:22:00] kind of where I was and this theology of the cross, uh, as it was applied to thinking through my son's disability as it relates to mm-hmm. You know, this theology of the cross. 

Deonna: Well, and I think about too, even if you take it further, , if we're Jesus' co-heirs or , , a child of God the same way, he watches all of us suffer too, and not in the same exact way, but I mean, even that is something that I've thought about in the past before 

he knows.

Yeah. 

Chris: That's Hebrews right. We, we don't have a high priest who can't sympathize with us. Yeah. 

Deonna: He gets it. 

Chris: Um, and it's just, and I think what ends up happening is it's very easy to look at your specific situation. Oh yeah. I go, this is so different than Jesus' situation. He can't possibly understand this. And so then it becomes, well, you don't understand what I'm going through. Mm-hmm. And I think it's, it's in those moments like sitting in a prayer chapel and you go, wait, no, you do understand. Mm-hmm. That it, it, it helps you go, you know what, I can [00:23:00] take two more steps towards the cross and know that you understand what's going through here. , That this situation that I find myself in, actually, there's a better lens to understand it through the cross than there is through anything else. I'm trying to understand it. 

Rhandyl: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that theory. I know you probably have had people, debate you on the fact that, well, God chose his son to be born into this human life, and he knew before he was even born that he was going to be suffering and be crucified and,, he let this happen. But I really like , your theological background , I'm still laughing in my head about how that was your prayer and then, and then you look up and see the cru, I'm like, uh, act. And he's, it's like a slap in the face. Like, uh, I know. Hello. Yeah. I can't tell you how many like, aha moments that God's done that to me. Whenever I think I'm like full of it. And, [00:24:00] uh, he's like, yeah, no. 

Chris: Well, and one of the things I think about that is that I think oftentimes when you find yourself, regardless of the situation, whether it's disability or something else, we want to sort of think, it's like a light switch moment, right. It's off and then it's on. Right. And so this is what it was. It was off, then this happened, and now it's on, and I think it's more of a dimmer switch a lot of times. Yeah. It ebb ebbs and flows. It's off and, and it's gradually getting brighter and brighter and brighter till you finally go, ah, you know, it's, it's Thomas, right?

Mm-hmm. Like you think of Thomas. In the Bible. Like it's not until after the resurrection of Jesus that he's like My Lord and my God. Mm-hmm. Right? And so I think what ends up happening is, like, Paul on the road to Damascus is a light switch. It's off. And now it's on that we think faith, things like that. Like this is this moment in my life, it's off and it's on. And then we, we make that as sort of the, this is how it is for everyone. Like, I think the, , the reality for a lot of people is it's not the Paul Light switch on off [00:25:00] moment. It's more of Thomas the dimmer switch, Uhhuh, you know, getting brighter and brighter where you finally go, my Lord and my God.

Deonna: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and we've talked about this, me and Rhandyl, but we both believed in God before this happened, and it did change our faith. And it wasn't that instant thing necessarily for me, but there was a lot of anger towards God. And I've told a lot of other parents who are very angry with God.

It's okay. God can handle , your feelings towards him. He's not gonna be like, well, she's mad at me, so, it's over. Yeah. But . Even, I mean, I had never prayed like an angry prayer towards God before, you know? And then all these things started to happen to my family and like I lost a sibling.

Like I've had a lot of negative things happen in the last few years. But, , I do think that that's something that's important for people to know is that God can handle any emotion you say to him. , Like you [00:26:00] saying like, how could you do this to me? You don't understand. That's a genuine Yeah.

Feeling that you are having at that moment. You don't have to always be saying the flowery stuff that people think you're doing, if that makes sense. , You can have real conversations with him and that's when your faith can get even better. Yeah. When you're real with him. 

Chris: Yeah. One of the things the church has long lost a theology of lament, right? Like we mm-hmm. Don't know, like we just don't lament anymore. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, like the whole book of Psalms is that mm-hmm. Uh, they're either psalms of praise or Psalms of lament. And so, because we don't practice that in church, and so now it's like, well, I wanna express this to God, but I don't know how to And can you say that? And yeah. You know, 

if I say that, is he gonna be mad at me for saying that? And I don't know. And so what do we end up doing? We just end up just kind of just shoving it down and going, all right, I don't know what to pray here. And yet, because we don't have this theology of lament, then, like there's a whole. [00:27:00] Book in the Bible psalms that gives us words to pray when we go, I don't get this. God, what are you doing? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and because we don't have this theology of lament now, we've got people living in a broken world where suffering as a reality of their life and they don't know how to take that pain and that hurt and that lament to God, even though his word shows us what that's like.

Deonna: That's interesting. Yeah. That's where toxic positivity comes in. I feel like yes, people expect me and Rhandyl and you to be happy, happy all the time, and just to be positive. And if you try to tell any, this has happened to me within church at different points in this, , experience. If you try to say it's really hard, like it's really, really, really, really hard.

They're just like, well, at least she's still with you. And there's always those comments. Yeah, yeah. , We've all had 'em and you're like, yeah, she is with me and it's really stinking hard, , like, I don't know what to say, but, and Rhandyl's had experiences with [00:28:00] that too? Oh, yes. 

Chris: And , we talk about this in my theology, suffering and disability class a bunch, the way in which we minimize other people's suffering. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, or even minimize her own suffering. Like, we're not gonna be honest about how much it hurts, and then other people aren't gonna be, and so they'll say stuff like, well, you know, at least she's still with you. Mm-hmm. You know, it could be worse. Mm-hmm. He could have, right? Like yeah, there's, and, and in other words like, hey, if I can make it small enough, then maybe you'll feel better.

Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. And the, yeah. And so we are really good, either ourselves or other people at minimizing suffering rather than embracing it. And uh, um, and what I've found is that, again, if you think this through in terms of like a theology of the cross. That, Martin Luther would go on to say in that, uh, Heidelberg, disputation, something along the lines of God is most present, hidden in your suffering.

Rhandyl: Mm-hmm. Um, and that I totally close hundred percent hearted believe 

Chris: to [00:29:00] that you would lean into the suffering. You wouldn't find an absent God, but you'd find a present savior. Mm-hmm. Yes. Uh, and I think we're so caught up in like, well, how do I make this small enough so that I can get over, get by, get through, get around. Mm-hmm. And then we end up missing how God is present, hidden in the midst of our suffering. Right. 'cause we're just too afraid to lean into it. Like, if I lean into it, I'm gonna find you're not there. Mm-hmm. And I don't wanna do that. And so at least Yeah. It's dark. Yeah. I, I'm too afraid of that. And so I'm not gonna do that. I'm just, how can I make it smaller so that I can get over, get by, get through, get around. And I found that if you lean into the, if you are honest about it, lean into that suffering, you will find that he's right there. 

Rhandyl: Yeah. That's where I find him the most. I've said this before, like on other episodes, like when things are, running smoothly and not touch and go, like, things are good., I know God's still there, but I feel like I am just not leaning into him like I should. Mm-hmm. And , [00:30:00] now whenever things are like really, really hard and things are dark and Remi's not doing good, bad things are happening, I've learned that leaning in and just like I said earlier, just knowing that there's nothing I can do and just being able to. Be fully honest with God on like, how I'm feeling and like, help me, help us help her get through this. That's where I feel the most spiritually connected and feel the Holy Spirit more is now it years into this when things are, the hardest. Um, but then of course I have the, guilt where , it should be more than just whenever it's the hardest time. Mm-hmm. You still feel that. But that's, what I've learned just through this experience.

Like Deonna was saying, we were both raised Christian, and I grew up in a Baptist church. , And , I was a believer. I knew, that I was a Christian but it wasn't [00:31:00] until I had these, , moments of trauma and suffering, , I had a really hunky dory childhood like life, um, up until this point, to be honest. ., Yeah, Jesus is the best WWJD. Like, you know, but now my relationship with God is, has so much different than it was so much better, um, because he, it's more real. Probably he has shown up for me in the darkest time, so, mm-hmm. No, I, agree about the lament thing.

Chris: At least become a little more familiar with the Psalms and the Psalms of Lament. Right. And one of the, one of the neat things about the Psalms is that the Psalms kind of function in two directions, right. They're mm-hmm. They're Psalms because it's in the Bible, it's God's word to us, but because of the nature of the Psalms, they also function as, our words to God. Mm-hmm. Um, and so they have this, double direction that, yeah. The Book of Judges doesn't have that. , But Psalms does. And so if we thought through like, I can take these psalms of David [00:32:00] and pray them to God, God, this is what's going on. I need your help. This is how I'm feeling. This is mm-hmm. And the words are right there so that we've mm-hmm. We've got access to like, here's how I feel. I feel just like what David said here. 

Deonna: Well, and it's funny 'cause I've read those before and thought, man, he was dramatic. But then, you know, and that was pre everything that happened. Yeah. And then, , especially after losing my brother, you're like, oh, that's why he was so dramatic. Like, it's a extremely desperate feeling. He was having a lot like that. I didn't understand. So yeah, that's an interesting thing to think about. 

Rhandyl: Okay. So Chris, you, have went into a bit of your coursework, but in your courses, what are some of the key themes that you like to explore with your students and things that maybe you haven't touched on today so far?

Chris: Uh, so I think of the theology of suffering and disability, , the course is really divided into three categories. , Theology of Suffering, [00:33:00] theology of the Body, , and then Theology of Disability. Mm-hmm. Uh, all three of them are related. . I think what ends up happening is when we think of suffering in the body, suffering impacts your body. And so we don't think holistically. So the example I always give in class. Um, is picture a kid who, , he's a high school junior. He is on the football team. , He's had a really good junior year and he starts hearing, whispers of,, Hey, college scholarship, NIL money. You just gotta, have a really good senior year. Mm-hmm. And so he hits the gym and he comes back for , his senior football season. And everybody takes notice. This guy has gone to beast mode. , He was really good as a junior, but man as a senior. Right. And so, like, the first game, he's the best game. And like, there's college scouts, he's the best game that he's ever played. And now it's the second game. And about halfway through the second game, he kind of cuts a corner and he winds up in a heap on the field, uh mm-hmm. And, , he's carted off the field. He's in front of the doctor and he looks at the doctor and he says, Hey, so how long am I gonna be [00:34:00] out? The doctor looks at him and says, look, you tore an ACL and an MCL. Like you don't understand your high school football playing days are done.

Mm-hmm. Right. And so now that, and I'll tell the students like, he's gonna get the surgery to get the ACL and the MCL L fixed. Mm-hmm. But is that the only part? Is he only physically suffering? No, I said no. Like, if you think about it, he's suffering in way more places than that. It's physical for sure. But is he suffering socially? Yeah. 'cause he's still gonna be part of the team, but he's gonna be on the sidelines with the jacket on watching them play. Mm-hmm. He's not gonna be part of that. Uh, is he suffering emotionally? Absolutely. Because he's, man, I'm gonna, and now it's all come crashing down. Yeah. Is he suffering spiritually, even if he's not a Christian? He's suffering spiritually. Yeah. 'cause I've never heard of anybody in a situation like that. Just went like that has went. Universe, why are you doing this to me? Like even unbelievers are like, God, why are you doing this [00:35:00] to me? Mm-hmm. Right. So like when you talk about the suffering that we go through, we suffer holistically.

Mm-hmm. And so there's a connection between suffering and the body. So we'll talk about suffering. Uh, I talk a lot about minimizing moralizing suffering. How do we minimize it to make it small? The way in which we moralize it, good people get good things, bad people get bad things. , It's job's, retributive theory, uh, that kind of runs through the book of job. Uh, yeah. And the way in which we kind of play it out in ourself, like, if I just have more faith, then I'll get this fixed. If I just go to church more. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'll get this fixed. You know, I must have done X, Y, Z. And so if I could stop doing X, Y, Z, then these problems will be fixed. Um, so we talk about that as it relates to suffering.

I think, , uh, kind of addressed a little bit of the body, um mm-hmm. You know, what was our body like? What can we know about the body in Genesis one and two? Mm-hmm. Uh, what are the consequences of the fall, that we experience every day? Uh, and then what's the hope of our future body? ,

And then when it comes to the disability [00:36:00] portion, , we talk about the image of God. What does it mean to be made in the image of God? , I think oftentimes what happens is when it comes to understanding what it means to be made in the image of God, we don't hear that a lot, within Christian circles within the church. Right. It's brought up, maybe like, you know, right to life Sunday, you know, you might hear a sermon on Yeah. Um, you know, what it means to be made an image of God. Mm-hmm.

, And this generation in particular, like the generation of students that I'm teaching, uh, any sort of image of God discussion is usually like sex trafficking or something like that. Mm-hmm. Is part of that discussion. But other than that, it's not really talked about. Yeah, we're made in the image of God, we're images of God. Great. What does that mean? Mm-hmm. Well, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made great. What does that mean? Mm-hmm. And then usually it's just another description of fearfully and wonderfully made right? And so, uh, we tag that back into the body, but then we also tag that back into disabilities. What does it mean that every individual, regardless of ability or disability, is an imager of God, that they are fearfully and [00:37:00] wonderfully made.

And then we talk more specifically about the church. And then in that class specifically, I talk about two ideas. , Accessibility and acceptability. Uh mm-hmm. That the church needs to be a place of accessibility. And so what is accessibility? Yes. That's, do we have enough parking places? What does seating look like? Yeah. Are the bathrooms accessible? But if you do all of that and the people in the church aren't acceptable, right? Then it doesn't really matter. Right? Mm-hmm. You've got the blue sticker on your door that says, this is an accessible building, but the people in the building could care less. Mm-hmm. Right? So you have to have both. 

Deonna: That's the biggest problem. 

Chris: Yeah, you have to both of those. Accessibility and acceptability. And so that's that theology of suffering and disability class. Now, the students in the minor that will stick around , I'll add two other terms to that accessibility, acceptability. , And that's welcome and belonging. Mm-hmm. Because those two terms are not the same. We use those words synonymously, like, Hey, you're welcome here, but you could be [00:38:00] welcome somewhere and not belong. Right? Yeah. Right. Like,

Rhandyl: yeah a hundred percent. 

Deonna: Yeah. I've experienced that. And at Rhandyl has, right? 

Chris: And so there are a lot of churches that be like, oh yeah, you're welcome here. And, but then it's clear, yeah, maybe welcome, but I don't belong here. Mm-hmm. And so we'll talk about those four ideas over the course of a couple of classes.

What's accessibility, what does it look like? And accessibility is more than just, physical access to the building. Accessibility has to do with theology, with attitude, with, right? Mm-hmm. So there's so many things and I always tell people, if you get the theology of accessibility right, then it will help with the acceptability. Mm-hmm. Right? You can, have all of the wheelchair accessible parking. You can have all of the wheelchair accessible bathrooms. You can have all of the wheelchair accessible seating. You can have all of that, and that's just physical accessibility. If you don't address theological accessibility, what does it mean to be an imager of God?, What does it mean to be fearfully and wonderfully [00:39:00] made? Then all of the physical accessibility won't change. The theological accessibility, right. Your building will be physically accessible, but your people won't be acceptable because the theology of. What does it mean to be made in the image of God? What does it mean to be fearfully? Wonderfully made are just, yeah, that's in the Bible, and we believe that, but we've never actually been asked what does it mean and how do we practice that? And so accessibility doesn't become acceptability. Mm-hmm.

And then we not even get to welcome and belonging. But what does it look like to go? This is an accessible building. This accessible building has translated into acceptable people. We recognize that every individual, regardless, ability or disability, is fearfully and wonderfully made is an imager of God. And then based on that, not only are you welcome here. But the way we have things so set up, you're not only welcome, you also belong here.

Deonna: Belong. Yeah. I love that. . Me and Rhandyl both had some moments with churches where they were [00:40:00] painful and it was like, yeah, it was the facade of accessibility in some ways. But then. Not accepting, not welcome, not belonging you and know. And then that's where sometimes me or Rhandyl and millions of other parents, of disabled kids have become, , like the high maintenance parent who's pushing for these things.

It kind of should be a given if you view disabled people through the lens of Christ. But a lot are just like, oh my gosh, that's gonna be a pain. I can't put a ramp there for her, like, that's gonna cost money or, , whatever. And so, yeah. I've, I, I like that you're teaching, is yours part of like a seminary type? Are mostly ministers taking your class? 

Chris: So here's the great part about the class. The class is an undergraduate class. It's a class that's open for all students. And when I started it, we're like, yeah, we just need one class. You know, once a year it'll be plenty. Yeah. Right. And now I have three classes in the fall and two [00:41:00] classes in the spring. Oh, wow. Um, and I have students from all over the place. Right. Like they're not, 

Deonna: and it's online, right? 

Chris: Uh, no, this is the resident. We have ones online. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. So there's four online classes, but the right Theology of Suffering and disability classes, A residential one. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I had a student in the class couple years ago, who was doing,, architecture, , and architecture design, and I asked, why are you in this class? , And she said, , I see myself, working in architecture and architecture design and oh, I would love day to be able to design a hospital that functions well for children with disabilities. Mm-hmm. 

. One of the, best parts about the class is that because it's not like,, this is required in this degree. Mm-hmm. Uh, it sits out there as a place where , any student who wants to take it can take it. I made the prereqs low so that any student who wants to take it can take it. And I've learned that especially through the suffering section, that the church really hasn't done a good job addressing suffering. Now students would [00:42:00] be like, yeah, you know, my parents got divorced when I was in middle school, and I asked the youth pastor and the youth pastor's like, yeah, God's got a plan, and, and could you help me?

And like, thanks. Yeah, I kind of knew that already, but how does that help? Yeah. And so you quickly realize, how broken the world is and that there's a lot of people who just wear a smile. Yep. Um, because they don't know anything else to do. Mm-hmm. Um, and so they come sit in the class and they're like, I'm here because, , I just, I don't know how to process some of this. I don't even know, like biblically how this, even some of this makes sense. , Can we walk through this together? ,

And what I've learned is that, the more that I'm transparent about , the struggles and issues and things in my life, the more that it helps them. , And so, I've to frequently be like, you know, you use yourself a lot as examples. And I said, yeah, 'cause I want you to recognize that we go through this, that, that, yeah. [00:43:00] Right. Like this isn't, 

Rhandyl: and that's how we feel, the podcast we share some things that, you know. Are very triggering. But the majority of our guests are caregivers of children with disabilities. And we all can relate to so many things, , that we could never just talk to, our friends that aren't in the same situation and they just get it and it's, yeah. Mm-hmm. And like you said, just being transparent and open, has made such a difference just in the last few years of us doing this to like our listeners and our followers, , and me, , specifically, it's just knowing that there's so many other people out there that feel the same way, and can relate , is huge.

Chris: Yeah. I'll tell you where this is in my life, and maybe if I'm honest and tell you where this is in my life, then you'll go, okay, I think I can ask that question. Or, you know, what I, I, this really helps me out because I'm going through that too. And , whether it's [00:44:00] disability, whether it's suffering, I wanna be honest in saying, , here's where this is struggle. You know, , it is sometimes really hard when you're driving by the backyard and mm-hmm. You're again, the backyard again. Mm-hmm. And you are like, am I ever gonna drive by this without having to do this? Um, you know, , and to be honest about it, like, yeah, no, it's not like, ah, sweet, I get to do this again. 'cause sometimes it's not like that. 

Deonna: No. Yeah. You take a different road sometimes. 

Chris: Sometimes, sometimes it's not right. , yeah. And so I think there's something to, being transparent that whether you're talking about suffering or whether you're talking about disability, goes a lot further than just, Hey, here's some theories on this. Mm-hmm. Um, and here's some, pages of reading on this. Let's talk about some examples. 

Deonna: Well, your trauma becomes your ministry if you allow it to. And that's something we all have done in different ways. But , like with me, with [00:45:00] Allie or you guys with your kids, I don't ever want somebody to think, oh, having a kid get paralyzed is easy 'cause it's not.

Yeah. And so I would never lie to somebody and say, it's easy. I'll tell people like it is, and most people can't handle the truth. But even with my sibling passing away, I never want people to think that's easy because it isn't. And I don't want them to think, well what's wrong with me because I'm struggling.

But Deonna was like smiling through it and happy. Like, that's not what happened. And I'll never pretend like it was. So I do think, yeah, the more transparent you are, the more you can use that for good. But it's hard 'cause sometimes we don't wanna seem week or whatever the case may be. 

Chris: And, that runs so counter to scripture, right? Mm-hmm. The people that God uses in scripture are weak. People are broken people. Totally. Right? As a matter of fact, it seems like the qualification for being used is brokenness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, [00:46:00] they're a, it's in our brokenness and in our weakness that God uses us and that he most specifically loves to use broken and weak people. And it makes sense. 'cause that's the way he gets the glory, right? Mm-hmm. The glory goes to him because I can't take credit for any of this. He's the one who did it in and through me. Yeah. , And to. Portray something else isn't really honest. And, I think people who aren't Christians will recognize, like nobody's life is like that. Mm-hmm. Right? , It's not like, hey, here's, easy answers for easy questions. There are really no easy questions in life. And the answers to those questions aren't easy either. Um, but here's what I found as hard as the answer is I have a heavenly Father who can support me, who willingly wants to support me, who will, if I lean in, will give me all the support I need mm-hmm. In the midst of these very hard things.

Deonna: Yeah, that's so true. So you talk [00:47:00] about how, a lot of people are like, oh, disabilities occur, so, you need to get fixed but you kind of described disability as, something that could be positive, not this bad thing and this burden.

So where did that come from? Because I know , you teach about that idea a lot too. 

Chris: Yeah. So the way in which I usually end up talking about disabilities as a gift mm-hmm. Because I, I think it's hard to talk about disabilities as a gift to parents. Yeah. , And there's something about that, that always just doesn't sit right with me if you're gonna talk about it that mm-hmm. So if I talk about it as a gift, I usually end up talking about it as the way in which disability is a gift to the church. Mm. Um and I usually even preface that with my students by saying, look, this still feels awkward to me, but I don't know of any other way to say this. Mm-hmm.

I, thinkability is a gift to the church, and so here's why. And so we talk about , how does disabilities force us to think differently about the way that we do church programming? Mm-hmm. Church ministry runs at like a million miles an hour. [00:48:00] Yeah. Right? But disability ministry runs at three miles an hour. Right? Like, you have to slow down to do disability ministry, but here's what happens when you slow down to do disability ministry. Everything else slows down around you. And so it's in that sense, like, how does disability ministry, help us engage? What does it look like to disciple people who have a disability? Mm-hmm. 

Because here's how we do it normally. Here's our discipleship class. It's three weeks and you're gonna take this three week discipleship class. Now here's Steve, who , got a cognitive impairment. He's 18, but functions in around the nine or 10-year-old level. You can't stick him in that class. No. Right? So what are you gonna do? . Is Steve not gonna be discipled now? Mm-hmm. Right. 

And so there's so many ways most of the time. No. Yeah, exactly. And unfortunately that's that's correct. Like, well, his parents will get it, so we're good. Yeah. So there it's in that way, that I think , when I talk about disabilities specifically in the [00:49:00] way in which disabil is a gift, in that sense, the way it's a gift to the church to kind of think through. How are we doing this, and why are we doing this?

So we would say that every Christian, has got at least one gift of the spirit, right? Mm-hmm. When you become a believer,, and that gift is to be used in the church. 

Deonna: Mm-hmm. Right? 

Chris: So what do you do with individuals who have a disability, who are Christians, who then clearly have a gift of the spirit, but on Sunday they come to church and they sit, they listen, they sing, they leave, and that gift's never put in practice. That's not how the church is supposed to function, right? Yeah. 

And to use Paul's analogy, that's like saying, well, I've got five fingers. I don't need all of them. Let's just say this one doesn't have to be used. Disability ministry is a gift to the church forces us to go, okay, so wait. We truly believe that everybody who is a believer. Regardless of ability or disability has been gifted by the spirit. So how do I figure out what Steve's gift is, as a 19-year-old who's [00:50:00] cognitively at a 10-year-old level so that he can use that gift in the church.

Yeah. So it's in that sense that I think when we talk about the way disability can be a gift, I love talking about it as a sort of, and again, it's still awkward, but it forces us to think through church ministry differently. And so oftentimes. Within that context, it's trial and error. Like, Hey Steve, I think you'd be really good as a greeter at the door. Okay, let's try that. And Steve does that, and he's like, no, this isn't you, right? Mm-hmm. Okay, so where else does Steve fit in the church? And so what are you gonna do? Are you gonna go, well, we tried one thing, it didn't work. Or are you gonna go like, let's try a couple other things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's so many ways. I think that when churches are committed to saying, listen, we believe that every individual, regardless of ability or disability belongs in the full body life of the church.

Church isn't a business with a hierarchy or a network, it's a body life. And so every part of the body has [00:51:00] value. And, we wouldn't say this part of the body has value and that no, every part has value. Right? Every part , is valuable and necessary. So what does it look like then to think through disabilities in terms of all these individuals who are part of our church, , who have a disability, that they're not only valuable but necessary. Mm-hmm. Um, and so when we think of it that way, to me that's the best way to talk about disability as a gift. 

. What does this mean for our church? Mm-hmm. It means way more than just, do we have accessible parking it now becomes, alright, so what does it look like to talk about salvation in a way that a, 16-year-old who has , the cognitive ability of a 8-year-old can hear it and can understand Right. Uh, what does it mean 

Deonna: individualized? Yeah. And I like, I know that Rhandyl, me and Rhandyl have talked about a lot of church interactions and um, I do think it's easier for the church to accept kids or adults who have just a physical [00:52:00] disability.

Yeah, yeah. But cognitively can, you know, participate and do everything than it is a kid with cognitive disabilities. I feel like churches do not know what to do with, , kids or adults who have a cognitive disability. And I think that's where the major work needs to happen as far as what I've witnessed.

Chris: So, yeah. And, and the other thing I would say to that is, , you talked about kids, right? And, and I'll tell my students this all the time. What I've come to realize is disability ministry is the only ministry in the church that you can age out of. 

Deonna: Yeah. Um, 

Chris: that once you're at a children's ministry, you're probably done disability ministry, like it's mm-hmm.

Disability ministry and children's ministry are almost always synonymous. . But then come college and, everybody's gone their separate ways for college disability ministry, like now what? Well, mm-hmm. I guess we're done. Um, and so even in that sense, that's sense. Like what does it look like to have a disability ministry that runs the course of someone's life [00:53:00] rather than, Hey, so you're at a high school now. Good luck, mm-hmm. 

Rhandyl: I like that. , So when talking to your students or , people at the church, how do you interpret Jesus's interactions with people with disabilities in the gospel?

Chris: Well, that's a great question. And that's one of the things that drove the Jesus and Disability Book. , Because what I did was I took seven healing miracles of Jesus and outlined, what did Jesus do? How did he demonstrate inclusion for individuals with disability? And then what can we take from that as a church and go, okay, Jesus did this, so how can we practice this?

And there's all sorts of different ways that Jesus interacted with an individual, , with disability. Two of my favorite, so John five and John nine are the two that I usually talk about a lot. Um, John five, is the healing of the lame man. Mm-hmm. Uh, around the pool of Bethesda. Mm-hmm. Uh, and this is the guy who, when you read the story, will never actually believe in [00:54:00] Jesus. When Jesus says, do you wanna be, well, all the guy can do is give excuses. I'll tell my students that this guy's, Mr. Excuses. Mm-hmm. Jesus says, do you wanna be made?

Well, do you wanna be well? And all he can give is reasons why he can't be well. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Right. And so never once does true. He, and in some sense, it's like Jesus heals a guy who doesn't even wanna be healed. Right. Right. Because at no point he is like, 

Deonna: what hurts in some ways. 

Chris: Yeah. But Jesus heals him. Mm-hmm. And then when Jesus catches up with him after the healing. And basically gives the guy the opportunity to be like, Hey, you've met the Messiah. You've met the healer. Do you believe he's not gonna believe? As a matter of fact, rather than believing, he goes to the religious leaders and says, by the way, not only does he give excuses to Jesus when Jesus heals him, and now he's got, you know, he's pick up your mat and walk. And so now he's got his mat and, he's walking. And the religious leaders say, see him? And they're go, Hey, it's Sabbath. You can't do that. He's even got excuses for that. [00:55:00] Don't blame me. It was the guy who healed me. Yeah, he was the guy who told me I could do that. 

Right? Like, every time the guy opens his mouth in the story is I, I'll say I don't know if you're allowed to have least favorite Bible characters.

Is that loud or not? But like if you are allowed, he's one of them probably. Yeah. If you're allowed to have least favorite Bible characters. This guy is like on my list of least favorite Bible characters. It's funny. Everything is an excuse. And so when he goes back finally to the religious leaders, after Jesus has confronted him again and presented himself to him again, rather than believing in Jesus, he then goes to the religious leaders and goes, Hey, this is the guy. That's the guy who healed me. The guy Jesus. Yeah. That's the guy who heals me. And then John tells us that this is where the persecution of Jesus starts for the religious leaders.

And so the reason why I like that story is that sometimes what happens, I think, is that we can be so pragmatic in disability ministries that we go, okay, so if we start this disability ministry. What does it look like for those people who are coming into [00:56:00] church? Will they believe, can they believe? Um, yeah. And if they're not going to, like, why? Right. We can be so pragmatic about it. Mm-hmm. And Jesus heals this guy knowing full well that he's never actually gonna believe. , And , if it's about belief, he could have just said, you know what, that guy's not gonna believe, but this guy will so I'll go heal him. Right, right, 

And so there's a reality of churches being involved in disability ministry, even knowing that some of the people that I'm interacting with. They're not gonna believe, their families aren't gonna believe the quote unquote ministry is always gonna be an evangelism ministry because they're never gonna believe. And I'm okay with that because Jesus was.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then the opposite story also in John, and it's the healing of the once Blind Man in John nine that takes over, basically John nine and then into John 10, because why does Jesus tell the Good Shepherd discourse? He tells the Good Shepherd discourse because of the healing, of the one's blind man, right? Mm-hmm. He heals this guy who's blind. The [00:57:00] religious leaders will kick him out and go, look, if you're on team Jesus, you can't be here. And Jesus will meet him again. Unlike the guy in John five, this guy believes, and I always tell my students like, this is one of my favorite Bible guys. Right? And the worst part about, it's like he doesn't have a name, Uhhuh. I always tell my students like, if you get there before I do, and you meet him, just make sure you know who he is so you can find me. And when I get there so that we can introductions, you can introduce me to him. 'cause this is a guy that I wanna meet.

Yeah. Um, because , he doesn't know Jesus, but he's defending Jesus to the religious leaders. I mean, his argument for who Jesus is, is so solid that the religious leaders are finally like, fine. Like you were born in sin and you're his disciple. Mm-hmm. We're disciples of Mo. Like they don't know how to answer him. Yeah. And so they end up just kicking him out. And it's Jesus who will meet him , and will be like, , I'll paraphrase it a bit, do you know who I am? He's like, no, I don't know who you are. And he is like, I'm Jesus the Messiah. And so this guy falls down and [00:58:00] worships Jesus. And then it's from that, that the Good Shepherd discourse happens. Why? Because the religious leaders. Who should have been. The Shepherds of Israel, who are caring for individuals in Israel are not caring for them., They're throwing them out, right? Yeah. Uh,

, And so that's why Jesus tells the Good Shepherd discourse, like, these guys are bad shepherds. This is what a good shepherd looks like. I'm the real good shepherd. Mm-hmm. Um, and so he's drawing this comparison and there's something too. The way in which Jesus talks about church leaders who would rather to use the language of the story, eat the sheep rather than care for the sheep.

Mm-hmm. Uh, that's very dramatic. We ought to see how Jesus talks about shepherds and good shepherds and go, alright, this is what our church leaders should look like when it comes to disability. Here's what Jesus did as it relates to this man who had a disability, how he cared for him. And these are the kind of leaders we should have that have these kind of characteristics, [00:59:00] these kind of qualities in their life as a disability effective leader rather than the leaders who went, yeah, we don't know what to do. You're clearly not with us. So yeah, get out. 

Deonna: I think about my experience with some people that I've talked to whose children are going, and it is back to the children's thing. . When a church decides to minister to that child, even if that child doesn't have no, have the cognitive abilities to be like, oh, I choose this, , faith or whatever.

Like when a church loves and accepts a disabled child, it changes everything for the mom, the dad, the siblings, , the whole thing. To me that's even a huge part of it. And, that's a reason enough for me to try to help people, , yeah. Feel accepted into the church is for that one reason alone, you know?

Chris: Yeah. And it's one of the reasons why,, I'll always talk about disability ministry is family ministry. It is disability ministry is family ministry. Hundred percent. Why? [01:00:00] Because you're not just caring for an individual who has a disability. while, it has impacted one person in the family. It's affected everybody in the family. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so it is family ministry. , And again, there's another way in which this is a challenge in church ministry because we don't often do family ministry.

Like if you think of how churches run, it's not necessarily a family ministry thing, right? You've got mm-hmm. You've got nursery. And then it's children's ministry children. Yeah. And then it's, yeah. Right? , There's no real like family ministry and so mm-hmm. What it does is it calls the leadership in the church to go, oh, right, how do we care for this family? Mm-hmm. Right? Not how do we care for this individual, but how do we care for this family? But here's , the thing about disability ministry, family ministry. Like, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who will say this, that both of you would say it's the same thing. Like we're low hanging fruit. Right. If you show me that you love my son. Oh yeah. I'll be there every time the door is [01:01:00] open. , 

Deonna: Okay. So we've talked a little bit about your books, but tell us what they're all called, uh, so that we can, uh, and we'll link them, but just so everyone can know. '

Chris: Well, so I'll just point to one of them. So Jesus and disability. Is probably the one that's, most connected to this conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, it just walks through about seven healing miracles of Jesus. And then it asks the question, what did Jesus do, as far as demonstrating inclusion, for individuals with disability? What are some of the practical things that he did? And then, how can we practically apply that in church today? Mm-hmm. Uh, it is more theological than practical. Mm-hmm. And so it's gonna spend more time walking through the theology of what Jesus did, more than, alright, here's , three things you should do based on this. ,

What I hope happens is that you grasp the theology of it and go, Hey, this is what this would look like in my church, or this is what it would look like in our church. Mm-hmm. Um, if we understood how Jesus was inclusive to individuals who had a disability, , the way he [01:02:00] was in this chapter or with this miracle.

Deonna: Um, well thank you so much for talking to us. I learned so much and honestly thought about a lot of things that I've not thought about before. And so, um, this is probably one of my favorite ones we've ever recorded. I loved it. But, , we'll definitely link to your book so people can get it. And, we're just so thankful you took time to talk to us today. 

Chris: I enjoyed it. 

Rhandyl: Yeah, we did too. And , this is the last episode of our, current season. And so we're gonna wrap this up and go into the holiday season, with a good faith-based episode. So we will see you guys next season.

**Disclaimer

Before we go, I wanna remind our listeners that this podcast is for the purpose of education and entertainment only, and is not a replacement for seeing a doctor. We suggest you seek out the help of a trained professional for help with your child's specific situation.